Re: This Thursday’s Bible Study Topic: Faith and Works

“Not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” Mt. 7:21;
Faith+Works=Justification.

Sincerly Paul S.

Re: This Thursday’s Bible Study Topic: Faith and Works

faith - works = notfaith

Re: This Thursday’s Bible Study Topic: Faith and Works

1st off specification is needed. I think the question your addressing is: on what BASIS is someone saved? If no disregard what i say. If you say "faith +works" is needed to be saved well that's, simply, not biblical. The Bible is crystal clear that your saved by faith alone. (Rom. 1:17, Eph. 2:8, Rom 4:16 etc.)

Understand that a faith that saves doesn't come alone. Saving faith produces good works and we are called to do so (Rom.7:4). BUT the grounds, the basis, or our way of getting saved, is faith alone. Works don't make us more "savable" or whatever you want to think of it. They are evidence of who we are! We can badger people for good works all we want, but what we should be doing is calling for repentance and faith unto Christ, which is the root of good works.

Pau,l Matt 7:24 is talking about false prophets/Christians who claim to claim to know God but God never knew and are "workers of lawlessness". The point isn't to establish a basis for salvation but to show that not everyone professing Christ is a Christian. Its the obedient one, who submits to God, that shows he is a child of the Almighty one.

So in essence your equation needs to be choice number 3.

Re: This Thursday’s Bible Study Topic: Faith and Works

Hello everyone. God saves a person by grace not looking at his works. Our works is a filty rag. But when we become christians its different.

Look at this passage James 2:24 (New King James Version)24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. If you are a christian you will have works. Works will show your faith.

John 13:35 (New King James Version)35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” How will people know? when we have love for one another.

The center in christianity is LOVE. A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (Jn 13:34-35). So how do we love?

Luke 14:26 (King James Version)26If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Romans 12:17-21 (New King James Version)17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore “ If your enemy is hungry, feed him;If he is thirsty, give him a drink;For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 7:12 (New King James Version)12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

This is love. May God Bless all of us.

Sincerely Paul S.

Re: Faith and Works

problem with your question about faith and works is that there is NEVER zero good works in someone's life. Technically, if faith needs to have works to be alive, then ONE work is enough. How many works are needed for faith to be justifying?

Question "Can I go to church, call myself a Christian, read Bible, and do good works and not have faith? "

Absolutely! Matt 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Re: Faith and Works

Paul S, if God completely changes Christians, why do Christians sin? Is it because God did not change them sufficiently? Quoting James 2:24 is a mistake for your point. James never doubts that the person who he is talking to is a believer. Even demons genuinely believe (otherwise, why do they tremble?)

Also, on another point, if James is right, and breaking one commandment is the same (for God) as breaking the whole law, then how can you claim that Christians are different in their works? We are all sinners equally, all lawbreakers.

Re: Faith and Works

Hello Vova. I have a question for you, what you do, do you do it for youself or for Jesus sake?

2 Corinthians 5:15 (New King James Version)
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Look at this verse carefuly.


1 Corinthians 15:10 (New King James Version)
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


Do u see a difference with Christ and not with Christ?


Sincerly Paul

Re: Faith and Works

For Sergey - thanks for your input. But I must disagree with you about the change. The new man, the new creation is Christ in us, BUT... we must put on Christ in order to live a holy life. It does not happen automatically, contrary to Calvinism.

If faith really means justification PLUS works, then there is no need to talk about works. Why is there a need to read the Bible? Just follow the inner compass and you are set.

However, we find that we do have the old self and we are called to PUT OFF this flesh


Eph. 4: 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.

Notice, we must DO something. It's not automatic. Paul does not say that as Christians we WILL put off. He is calling us to do good. Reading the Bible is not automatic, going to church is not automatic.

So, I disagree that the good works are evidence of faith. Besides... I know that some cults (like Jehovah's Witnesses) also do good works. Are they saved? If their works are not evidence of true genuine faith, then how do we know what our works are?

You did not really answer the challenge. What if I have good works and sins. Do good works prove that I'm genuinely saved or do the sins prove I'm still unjustified?

Re: Faith and Works

Hi Paul,

Notice that 2 Cor. 15:15 is a *call* to live a Christian life. Btw, notice that Corinthian Christians were really bad Christians.

1 Cor. 3:3 talks about them living fleshly lives, fighting among each other.
1 Cor. 5 says there was immorality there that was worse than among non-believers. (btw, which means they were believers, otherwise it cannot be said that their actions are worse than pagans (or non-believers)

And they also had lawsuits among themselves.

1 Cor. 6:5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!

Ap. Paul does not doubt their salvation (based on their deeds) even though their behavior was unacceptable. Notice, he says that they are brothers (in Christ) who are fighting with each other.

But if true faith means that brothers cannot be fighting among themselves, then why is Paul calling them Christians?

I'm not saying that it's OK to fight, I'm saying that there are examples of really bad Christians still being saved by the grace of God.

Re: Faith and Works

Hello Vova I am sorry for replying late. I was busy.

Tell me what is this verse talking about?

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.




Look at this verse.

Romans 8
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Re: Faith and Works

Hi Paul,

Good question on 1 John 3:9. Notice, this verse says that those who are born of God do NOT sin, ever and they cannot sin. It's impossible to sin.

Now, does this describe anyone you know? In my view, it's talking about this New Man, Christ in us.

As our whole person, we sin, because we have this New Man and the Old Self, which is flesh, which can only think about sinning.

So, this is consistent with my view that we sin (1 John 1:8 says this also).

Romans 8 passage says that if we live according to the flesh (or the Old Self) we cannot please God. But if you remember, noone pleases God all the time, right? So, how much pleasing is necessary to enter heaven?

My view is that pleasing God has nothing to do with salvation. God will save someone who is not pleasing Him but who accepted Christ as Savior by faith, and God will not save someone who is trying to please Him (like Pharisees) but who never accept Christ.

Re: Faith and Works

For Sergey,

I think we agree on somethings but we also disagree. My question for you is WHEN do we get eternal life? After death or while we still live? If while we still live, at what point? Is eternal life a gift or conditioned on my performance in anyway?

Quote from Sergey
"I fully agree with you where you said we must DO something and its not automatic. "

Where (I think) we disagree is that I don't believe we must DO something in order to enter heaven, but in order to please God.

Confession does not save. Paul mentioned confession (in my opinion) because it was common at that time. But one can get saved by believing on their deathbed, while unable to speak, do you believe this?

Also, I don't really understand your answer about works vs. sins in one's life:

Sergey's quote:
"Works, (the works that you can only have in faith) do prove that you are genuinely saved. Its actually the faith that proves everything but if you don't have the works then you obviously don't have the faith." end quote

I'm confused, because you say that cults have dead works. But how can you tell the difference between dead works? In the end, you agreed that works don't flow automatically but require our effort, so if this effort is necessary to save me, then I'm saved by works (even if partly). But the problem is that how much works are needed? Is reading 1 verse of Bible a day enough? How about 1 chapter? Who decides in the end?

And what do you mean if one does not have works, they obviously don't have faith? Everyone does some good works, Jesus said that even the nonbelievers (pagans) love those who love them.

Also, James says:

1:27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

But I think many Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc.. would claim that they follow the above to the 't'.

Also, notice, James may have problem with his own salvation:

James 3: 9With the tongue we (Christians, right?) praise our Lord and Father, and with it we (wow, same Christians?) curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. (notice, he does not say it's impossible, but that it's SHOULD NOT be like that) 11Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

The above verses are often quoted by preachers to show that it's impossible for Christians/saved to love sin, yet, they should read the above verses that talk about the duality in all of us who are believers yet also live in sins (whatever they may be)

Re: Faith and Works

Hello Victor!

What to you think about this verse?

1 Peter 1:17-19 (New King James Version)

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Re: Faith and Works

The question at hand does not specify which works are combined with faith.

There are four "kinds" of works that are mentioned in the New Testament.

1. There are "works" or deeds of the Law. This is the Law that was given to the Jews, when they left Egypt, which includes 10 commandments. This Law is no longer in force, it's dead, it has been fulfilled by Christ.

(ESV) Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

(KJV)Acts 15: 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Some jews were teaching newly converted Christians to do the works of the law, in order to be saved... that was false teaching.

2. There are works of merit.
(KJV) Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always...

Eph 2: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Acts or works of "merit"... These are good works, a lot of people do them, and at times they can make one feel proud. Once I heard a very successful businessman say " do you know how much I give to my church???" He was boasting. This is not to say that we should not do works of merit... I am merely classifying different kinds of works, mentioned in the Bible, esp. in New Testament.

3. Works designed by men. These works are not mentioned in the Bible, they are made up by men, sometimes with good intentions, but nonetheless are worthless in the eyes of the Almighty.

(ESV)Mark 7:6-8 6And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me; 7in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' 8You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."

Christ was talking about man made rituals, that the lawyers put more value on then the actual commandments of God... Even though He was talking about the Law... which, today, we are no longer under, it is important to realize, what God's attitude is toward man made teachings.

Some of man made works include infant baptism, sinner's prayer, enforcing of certain dress codes, feet washing, instrument accompaniment during singing at worship services, etc. none of these are mentioned in Bible as commandments, nor can it be observed that the first century christians were doing those things, but modern man in his wisdom decided that it would be better to do it his way. These works are vain in the eyes of the Lord.

4. Works of righteousness or of faith. We know that faith comes from hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17) The faith, that saves, or saving faith, comes only from hearing the word of God... In Heb 11, we can clearly see that all who are listed in that great "hall of fame" of the faithful, have heard God, believed and obeyed Him... in other words, did something, produced some sort of "work" upon hearing and believing...

That "work" is the work of faith... That's the works that James is talking about... believing in God alone is fruitless, but believing and doing what is required of us is fruitful...

Nothing we do on our own accord can save us, can reconcile us back to God, can remove one tiniest sin from us... and while we have those sins, they separate us from God... with that in mind, let's read Luke 17:7-10...

7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.[c] 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
Without getting into why Christ talked about slavery, here's my argument:
Some things that are required of a believer, or commanded before one can become a member of Christ's Body, His Church are just that, his duty... one must fulfill them before he can enjoy his life with Christ... in other words, he is not earning his salvation, he is merely accepting it, by doing certain things... salvation is in no way a payment for his works...
Let me illustrate by example... you are notified that you can receive $50 million, on certain condition... first, you have to go to the nearest river, swim across it, then hike for 10 miles to certain location, pick up an envelope and call the number on it...

Let's say that you believe this offer... are you 50 mil richer? no. so you go and do what is required, call the number and they transfer the money into your account now you have 50 mil... did you deserve 50 mil? did you earn it? did you work for it? no, no, and no... the things you've done were merely a way of accepting the offer... if you just believed them, you would not have received the money, and yet, if someone else did those same things you've done, but without the invitation, they would not have received the money either... faith without works, is dead... God has chosen a way out for every sinner... yet only a few obey his commandments, and become saved...

What are the requirements you ask?

Obviously one has to hear the word of God, so hearing and understanding is one of them (Rom 10;17)

Believing what the word says, believing the Gospel is the second requirement.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Luke 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Repentance comes next... decision to turn away from sinful life, 180 turn from past deeds.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent and...

This brings the next requirement. Baptism or submersion in water for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 2:37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Now one is saved from the burdens of previous sins that were washed away by the blood of Christ... One is added to Christ's Body, His Church, by Him...

Acts 2: 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

At this point, if one were to die, he would be with God in heaven, his garments are clean... but those who continue to live on this earth, are subject to fall short of His Glory, to stumble, to sin... but being a Christian, he can repent of that sin, and God will forgive him... not so if one has not accepted the free gift of grace, by obeying the commandments of Christ.

One last requirement is left, to those who are left on this earth in Christ... Be faithful until the end, and you will receive the crown of life...

Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

I apologize for such a long lecture.
Val.